A sad surprise (Warning, graphic picture attached)

[Sweetened]

We have three does, 2 of which are due on the 20th, and one of whom wasn't bred.

Or so we thought.

I went out to re-bed down the goat house where Murielle and the two bucks were. When I approached, Murielle walked away like she always does and I noticed she was bleeding. I rushed into the goat house to see if she was about to kid or just had, only to find premature twins (a boy and a girl), luke warm and not breathing. I believe they were still born, and either way, I don't think they would have survived. Their hooves, though formed, were like jelly. I have called them Jane-Doe and Buck. I'm so sad.  

Doeling on left, Buckling on right. Magazine for size reference.

[Davinci]

That is brutal, sorry about this.

Hooves of newborns are amazingly spongy. I have always been fascinated with newborn hooves. Our horse was over 300 days pregnant and that baby had squishy hooves. They harden up fast! I know a goat girl and will ask her about this. (she breeds and judges goats in goat shows. She knows her goats!)

TO me, those babies don't look malformed. Their heads look well shaped. This is a tragedy and mystery for sure.

NOTE: on my screen only one baby is visible. I had to click on the picture to go to another screen where both kids were in the picture. Maybe make note somewhere that people can indeed click the picture to see a different view of it.

[Sweetened]

It was a little rough. Neither of them had their teeth yet, which I thought was normal, but I'm told if they were to term they would have had some teeth erupted. I checked their mouths and they both had fluid in them, so I really don't think they ever got a good, solid first breath.

The doeling on the left looks better formed. The buckling, on the left, has very buldgy eyes, that ear the you see is 'off'. The other side's ear is just like the doelings. The eyes on both kids looked like they had cataracts. I know eyes change after death over time, but these babies were less than 2 hours old, still warm with no rigor, so I don't think that contributed to the eyes.

I haven't experienced the hooves at birth before when normal, but even the slightest touch on these and they seemed to 'deflate'. Maybe that's normal, but it seemed so weird to me. Their back legs had very little muscle present and they were both terribly skinny. I was going to do a necropsy, but realized I had no reference for normal in a stillborn, let alone a pre-me.

I didn't know you could click pictures to go to another link -- it doesn't give me that option? What is your screen resolution!? 800x600?

[Davinci]

Sweetened, just had phone chat with my goat friend. Told her of your experience and asked what she thought. OF course, without seeing the babies and mom, it's hard to say for sure. All suggestions are general and not necessarily what happened in your situation. Random notes to follow:
- hooves are very spongy and remain so for a few days. Normal.
- babies with large deformities or health problems are more likely to abort early in the process, rather than late.
- a culprit that causes abortion or early birth is being butted in the side by another goat. Physical trauma can lead to dead babies and early delivery.
- if the babies were warm and had fluid in their mouth/throat, they were most likely born alive and did not get out of their sac fast enough. New mothers often fail to break the sac and the baby drowns in its own fluids.
- babies that are born dead lose their temperature very fast. The longer the body stays warm, the more likely that it was born alive. The inside of the mouth is a good indicator. If you check your goat and an hour later check her again and there is a dead baby and the inside of its mouth is cold, likely born dead. If you check your goat and check again an hour later and find a dead baby, and the inside of the mouth is warm, likely born alive and died after hitting the ground (or during). This is general, not exact.
- from the time a goat goes down to start serious pushing, there is a window of about 10 minutes to get the baby out and the sac OFF so it can breathe. Any longer and you need to investigate what the hold up is.
- sometimes new moms don't know they have to lick and stimulate the babies, get them moving and circulating. THey just drop a baby and walk away. Babies die, especially if their airway is not clear or the temps are very cold.

You probably know all this but thought I would relay it while fresh in my head.

[prairie dog]

They look formed ? Might just have been a bad delivery and taken to long ? I bought a ewe once with the intention of fatting her up and the slaughtering her ....but in the third week she went into labour ? As it was it was a hard labour and the lamb didn't make it and she died two days after ? sadly these things happen and all we can do is learn from them ..........sorry for the sudden loss , even if it wasn't expected

[Sweetened]

All good points.

My understanding of the situation is a key indicator of them not being full term is that they had no erupted teeth, putting them 10-20 days premature. Concerning the soft feet, having pulled kids now I have an understanding of the soft and squishy hooves you're referring to -- this was not the same.

When the kids are first born, they come out with a spongey coating on them, I assume so they don't rip apart the doe on the way out. The kids in the picture on this thread were actually deflatable, as in, no substance beneath the soft, squishy coating.

If you look at the head shape, it's abnormal on the goat on the right. Neither goats had developed retinas, their eyes were like marbles inside their heads. You can see the bulbous eyes on the one on the right. Neither of them had any musculature developed along the back legs, they were paper thin.

Also, the ear on the one on the right, you can see it looks a little different, maybe folded -- it's not. The ear on the other side that you can't see is very much the same as the doe's on the left.

Something was off with, at least, the one on the right. The one on the left was never pulled out of the sack, the one on the right had been cleaned off. More to the point, Murielle didn't bag up. She produced about half a quart 3 days after the fact and was dry the next day, she hasn't produced milk again.

Whether premature or not, I can't help but feel that there was something wrong with one or both of these babies (especially the one on the right) that caused the pregnancy to terminate.

[Chickenlady]

It's very sad, but like grandpa always said, if you have livestock you have deadstock.
Doesn't make it less sad, but just a little reminder that we don't always have control.

I have a few goats..if something like happen, to bad...if it happens the next year again...of to the auction they go.
I don't have many goats..only 6 right now, but it took me quite a few years to select this little herd. All good milkers..good mommies. Well except for one..but that is my son his goat..he raised her with the bottle and she is very useless, but I can't sell her..she is not mine.

[Sassy]

I'm sorry to hear about your loss. Very sad.
I've hear about the west nile virus vaccine for horses is not a good idea for mares that will be/ are bred. Foals are born disformed or dead.
I don't know much about goats, but I suppose there are vaccins they have to get also. I would just check in with that, to make sure it's not a vaccine that causes this.

[Sweetened]

I am very anti-vaccine, so that was not the issue.

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